The ROOF - Things you should know March 26, 2006
Whether you are buying or selling real estate, or just trying to decide about your own roof replacement, there are a few things you should know about a roof. As I look out of my window, 95% of the neighbors have a composite shingle roof. So let’s talk about those.
When you are buying or selling a house with a composite shingle, do the math. The house next door to me has a 20 year shingle. The house next door to that one has a 30 year shingle. It is easy to tell a 20 year shingle, because the shingles lay flat, with almost no “definition”. As the shingles get thicker on a 25 year, 30 year, 35 year and up shingle, there is definition and a “layered” look. Even some of the best home inspectors can’t tell a 30 year from a 35 year shingle, so if you are a seller, and know you have a 35 year shingle, it would be good to tell your agent to highlight that feature, and you should also put it on your Seller Disclosure Form.
Sellers: Don’t forget to put GOOD things on the Seller Disclosure form, so it is not merely a highlighting of “bad” things. Add a list of good things, as an attachment if needed, and have the buyers initial the attachment too.
It took me about a week in the real estate business to learn the simple lessons of “roof math”. When I was selling my own home in Cherry Hill NJ, the home inspector went up the ladder to the roof. He came down and told the buyer that the roof was about 18 year’s old and may need to be replaced in 2 years, because it was a 20 year shingle. I said, “The house was built 8 year’s ago. Are you saying they found some 10 year old shingles to put on the roof of a new house?” I really wasn’t trying to be “flip” or nasty, it just popped out of my mouth like that in true “Philly” style.
Everyone should know how to do the simple math of a roof without relying on the inspector. Not because the inspector will be wrong, but because a roof can be just fine and still be “due” for replacement soon. I’m not going to go into second shingles and third shingles, because something tells me these will be obsolete in the future, given most roofs are no longer flat enough to go that way. I will mention roof color briefly. Mr. Cherry Hill Home Inspector was somewhat correct, in that it was a black shingle. Often black shingles will not make it to 20 years, while gray or tan ones can go to 23 or 25. Heat absorption issues. You see very few black roofs in year round sunny climates, like Florida and CA.
Buying a condo? Think you don’t need to look at the roof? Not so. A few weeks ago I attended a home inspection of a condo built in 1986. I walked across the street and climbed up on something to see the roof. The inspector and buyer said “What the heck are you doing over there?” I said I’m checking out the roof. The inspector said “Why? That is the condo association’s problem.” By then both the buyer and inspector joined me under my “perch”. I said look, it’s flat, it’s a 20 year shingle, right?” Inspector said yes. I said “This place was built in 1986. 1986 plus 20 equals 2006. When I get the resale certificate, I need to check to see if they have enough money in reserves to replace the roof, or warn the buyer about a possible special assessment. I need to check the Reserve Study for cost of replacement. I need to check the dollar amount currently in reserve for all replacement items. If there is not enough money there for all things, I need to divide the shortfall by the number of units, or prorate per total square footage of complex by unit size, and give a range of possible special assessment amount.
Buyers note: The condo association is YOU. There is no Fairy Godmother, named HOA, with a magic wand.
I’ll end with this “red flag” for both buyers and sellers. I ask the owner or listing agent, “How old is the roof, especially when I can’t do the math well on a 1917 built home…too many roof changes to do simple math. Owner responds: “I just had the roof checked and it’s fine.” Big red flag! That is not the correct answer to “How old is the roof” 
Check out these related posts:
- No Credits “For Repairs” Allowed
- Got renter’s or condo unit insurance?
- Russ, NO! Please Say It Ain’t SO!
Article Tags>> condo | disclosure | form | roof
- Posted in : General Real Estate
- Author : ARDELL
Comments»
Non Disclosure Loophole:
In one state I know of, if a Seller does not deliver a Disclosure Form to the buyer, they have to pay a $500 penalty at closing. As a result, many sellers are advised not to do the Disclosure and pay the penalty thereby avoiding all the legal risks associated with the form..
That doesn’t make a lot of cents
That’s a yoke, son.
The seller is still responsible for lack of disclosure regardless. That said I have had times when I would not let the seller provide a Seller Disclosure Form and told the buyer they could not rely on the seller’s representations.
I once had a seller client whose husband had just died and she insisted she knew things she did not. She kept calling the toilet a sump pump. The buyer asked “Do you have a sump pump?” and she said yes. Luckily I was there. I said can you show it to me? She looked at me like I was stupid and brought me to the toilet. LOL
In her defense it was a below grade toilet operated by a hydraulic pump to pump up to the main sewer line. She must have heard her husband mention the word pump when it was installed.
No Seller Disclosure Form for her! LOL
Ardell
Just a general comment here but I would strongly advise any agent to refer their seller to a competent RE atty before “disallowing” them to complete a disclosure form. I hope also that the buyer’s inability to rely on reps by the seller was incorporated into the purchase and sale agreement and that provision was drafted by a lawyer so that the language was appropriate to protect the seller in case of a future dispute.
Remember, under our agency law, a seller’s agent MUST advise the seller to “seek expert advice on matters relating to the transaction that are beyond the agent’s expertise.” IMHO, no court in the land would conclude that such actions were within the expertise of a real estate licensee.
-Russ
Now Russ, how can I get her to agree that she needs an attorney when she won’t even agree that the toilet isn’t a sump pump. How do I tell her she needs an attorney because she doesn’t know what she is talking about. She was left all alone by the death of a husband who did everything in the house. But by darn she wasn’t going to admit for one second that she didn’t know something.
Generally it works in reverse, Russ. I have the expertise and first hand knowledge that the lady is calling a toilet a sump pump. So I tell the buyer on the spot and the buyer’s agent NOT to rely on her representations right there and then and NOT where she can hear me. She was a very proud and very elderly woman.
The next day (because no lawyers were around on Sunday), I went to the estate attorney and had him draft an appropriate document. It was not an addendum, because neither I nor the attorney wanted her to see it. It would have upset her terribly.
The buyer signed it and the seller never saw it. I’d rather buy the guy a sump pump than argue with her and make her feel stupid.
Right before closing she told me she forgot about a curtain she wanted to keep. It was the first curtain she bought for the house with her now deceased daughter. She couldn’t part with it. I called the buyer’s agent and he said the buyer said the agreement says he gets it. Creep. I told her to take it. I told her to take it down and pack it right now. She said won’t you get in trouble. I said don’t worry about it, I’ll buy him a new curtain and put it there, he probably won’t know the difference. And he didn’t.
Isn’t every agent’s expertise different? Granted, many agents would not know whether or not she had a sump pump. Maybe they wouldn’t have looked. But I knew the minute she said it that she didn’t have a sump pump. Glad I made her point to the toilet so the buyer could see what HER sump pump looked like
[...] full article at Rain City Real Estate Guide [...]
Ardell
Ask Russ how difficult it is to argue and prove “lack of disclosure” That’s why the Disclosure form was invented. It’s in writing. So it make perfect sense to avoid the writing and just pay the 500 esp if you have a sump pump to hide
Im not saying this loophole is available everywhere but where it is IT IS USED & those that know about it will corroborate what I’m saying.
3 cents, I don’t think there is a fine here for not providing a seller disclosure (called a Form 17), as long as the buyer waives the right to receive one. Most people fill them out, but nothing replaces the buyer doing their own due diligence and hiring a competent inspector. Also a good idea to go to the property at different times of the day and night during the first week.
The “Form 17″ law in WA
“Except as provided in RCW 64.06.050, nothing in this chapter shall extinguish or impair any rights or remedies of a buyer of real estate against the seller or against any agent acting for the seller otherwise existing pursuant to common law, statute, or contract; nor shall anything in this chapter create any new right or remedy for a buyer of residential real property other than the right of recision exercised on the basis and within the time limits provided in this chapter.”
So what does this mean? The buyer’s rights under the Wash. Seller Disclosure law end at closing. If seller fails to provide the form and the buyer elects (knowingly or unknowingly) to close without receiving the form, buyer has no recourse against the seller directly resulting from the failure to provide the form. This does not mean that buyer gives up any rights under tort or contract law to go back against the seller for misrep or breach of warranties or against their agent who may not have advised them about the form.
-Russ
While this “disclosure” discussion has come up under my “roof” post, I have to say that I haven’t had any after sale problems with roof issues. Over the years I had one problem with a small rock with a plant in it, a mailbox switchout, and a few issues with wet basements where the seller was “correct”. I try to make it a point not to deal with people who lie and conceal. Once someone lies to me or asks me how to lie about something (yes, they do), I choose not to deal with them.
I had an appraiser call me the other night, after 9 p.m. on a Sunday I might add. He asked me what I wanted him to put on the appraisal, owner occupied or tenant occupied!?!? I said “The truth usually works well enough for me.”
There is too much paper and not enough real honesty and disclosure. The only one I find “iffy” is about neighborhood noise. Some states have that and some don’t. There’s a tot lot about two blocks from me. I happen to like hearing happy kids playing. Is that a “disclosure” in Washington State? How about the kids that are having a tantrum about not wanting to go home that DO annoy me? Most of the time the place is empty. How many tantrums equals a disclosure? How about dogs barking five doors away? Where do you draw the line?
Non Disclosure to Small Claims/King County
Ok, long story short. I bought a condo in Queen Anne 2004. The seller checked “NO” to this question on the Seller Disclosure Statement. 1g. “Are there any pending or existing assessments against the propety.”
In the Resale Certificate it states there is a pending lawsuit against the builder for defects and “Additional funds will come from a Special Assessment.”
I did not see these documents until after I moved in. 2 months later I was billed $1,678.71. I am serving the Owner who has moved out of state with small claims papers.